Curse

ALF71BE · Aug 26, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Spamming heals and prots is bad even if u have the energy, just heal the guy getting hit, and if u do that your energy will be fine as a monk and your team will not die

also the only places that dont have rend or some shit, are easy as hell and theres no point to look for the ele ER spammer, cause the monk will still do better and most of the attacks will go under the prots the ER spammer uses "before u say change the build" if you do that you lost the point of the build, why spam 5E heals and prots? a monk can do it better and have more flexibility.

You don't get it. You NEED to spam. Wether if that means you have 0 skill or are very l33t, you need to spam with ER.

And somewhat hard places without enchant removal do exist, for example, Hidden City of Ahdashim. Go without a SY! para/warrior, groups of 3 ruby djinns might change your opinion.

Quote:

My point was that Soul Reaping is an incredibly powerful energy engine in PvE, so before ER's buff, why didn't people run this over a regular Monk?

Because necros own in so many ways that spamming Necrosis every 2 seconds is moar fun than healing, at least for most people.

Tyla · Aug 26, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

And somewhat hard places without enchant removal do exist, for example, Hidden City of Ahdashim. Go without a SY! para/warrior, groups of 3 ruby djinns might change your opinion.

I've H/H'd that area on my Ranger.

Quote:

Because necros own in so many ways that spamming Necrosis every 2 seconds is moar fun than healing, at least for most people.

Because as a player Necromancer you're limited to Necrosis and a single condition / hex, right?

Perfected Shadow · Aug 26, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Am I missing something or does everyone run single human hybrid monks? ER combined with a healing prayers monk is amazing because overlap heals/overheals don't happen. Vital Blessing and GDW makes the party very happy unless they're stuck up fags that will accept nothing less than cookie monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

prot monks are better

stop being bad

Why are prot monks better? I don't see what kind of monk protting can keep up with SB and PS spam. Maybe condition/hex removal but that's what the other backliner for me does.

Quote:

I think the attribute spec and loss of an elite really clinches this, though.

A WoH hybrid in hardmode works so well; the loss of that powerheal for infinite energy (in my experience) isn't worth it.

A second backliner can do the powerhealing.

Tyla · Aug 26, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Am I missing something or does everyone run single human hybrid monks? ER combined with a healing prayers monk is amazing because overlap heals/overheals don't happen. Vital Blessing and GDW makes the party very happy unless they're stuck up fags that will accept nothing less than cookie monks.

You don't need the energy management unless you're a pretty bad Monk.

And overheals, or overlap heals rarely happen as far as I can see. Putting GDW on another midliner is something I always do.

Quote:

Insult less and back up your points more. Why are prot monks better? I don't see what kind of monk protting can keep up with SB and PS spam. Maybe condition/hex removal but that's what the other backliner for me does.

I don't see why you would need SB and PS being spammed in the first place, and why won't you run condition and hex removal on both backliners if they are there?

Quote:

A second backliner can do the powerhealing.

Maybe the first can. Maybe there can be one prot and one hybrid.

DarkSpirit · Aug 27, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

cuz monks are better and dont need the energy management

Correction: Really good monks may not need this but like Ensign said, this would beat mediocre monks. Since there are more bad and mediocre monks combined in GW than really good ones, then this beats MOST monks out there.

JDRyder · Aug 27, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

You don't get it. You NEED to spam. Wether if that means you have 0 skill or are very l33t, you need to spam with ER.

no you dont need to spam, if your in a bad team "when eles try to front line and shit" then maybe, but in any good team the war can hold agro and you only need to pop a PS on him before he goes in and theres no need for spamming.

spamming is bad L2P

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Correction: Really good monks may not need this but like Ensign said, this would beat mediocre monks. Since there are more bad and mediocre monks combined in GW than really good ones, then this beats MOST monks out there.

90% of GW players are bad cuz they try to play it like every other MMO game. A monk is only as good as his team if his team sucks hes going to be forced to use energy when its not needed cuz the mid line is in their back line and your front line is behind your back line.

Its not that hard to play monk in pve any way people are just bad cuz they dont use their heads.

DarkSpirit · Aug 27, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Yet another correction:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

spamming is bad if you dont have infinite energy.

12chars

snaek · Aug 27, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

spamming is bad stfu

wutchu talkin bout!??! [flare] spam pwns u!!!

especially when a w/e or r/e does it

DarkSpirit · Aug 27, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

90% of GW players are bad cuz they try to play it like every other MMO game. A monk is only as good as his team if his team sucks hes going to be forced to use energy when its not needed cuz the mid line is in their back line and your front line is behind your monks.

Its not that hard to play monk in pve any way.

And yet if the team messes up, and the monks held out, who finally gets the praises? That's right the monks.

Sure in the perfect team, the monk doesn't need to heal/protect as much but a good monk shines brighter in a bad team.

This spammy build is designed to save bad teams from the "hot boiling water" of party wipes. Most monks out there, unless they are really good, cannot match this since most of them would run into energy issues.

JDRyder · Aug 27, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Am I missing something or does everyone run single human hybrid monks? ER combined with a healing prayers monk is amazing because overlap heals/overheals don't happen. Vital Blessing and GDW makes the party very happy unless they're stuck up fags that will accept nothing less than cookie monks.

people over lap heals and prots cuz they are bad and dont use their heads, you have 2 monks, use different skills for crying out loud

and before you say "TAM only uses cookie cutter monks" we run just about every monk elite in prot, DF and healing and we are big fans of Blight bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And yet if the team messes up, and the monks held out, who finally gets the praises? That's right the monks.

Sure in the perfect team, the monk doesn't need to heal/protect as much but a good monk shines brighter in a bad team.

This spammy build is designed to save bad teams from the "hot boiling water" of party wipes. Most monks out there, unless they are really good, cannot match this since most of them would run into energy issues.

its still cuz of them had nothing to do with the monk, this is why i dont pug any more and only use guild chat.

Tyla · Aug 27, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yet another correction:

12chars

Spamming is just bad.

ALF71BE · Aug 27, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

L2P

L2R:

Quote:

Wether if that means you have 0 skill or are very l33t, you need to spam with ER

-

Quote:

I've H/H'd that area on my Ranger.

So did I, no PvE skills. Relied a ton on enchantments though.

And before you reply with "PvE skills are there to abuse", "you don't get any credit by not using PvE skills", "two monk backline can do it better", "vanquishing is easy", etc, do note that we all don't have all the campaigns or are in an ultra capable l337 guild or have been playing for three years.

Jeydra · Aug 27, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

My point was that Soul Reaping is an incredibly powerful energy engine in PvE, so before ER's buff, why didn't people run this over a regular Monk?

Before the ER buff I played around with Ether Prodigy, which also gives drastic energy returns, but in this case the weaknesses are more pronounced. While Ether Prodigy provides enough energy to use Heal Party / Heal Other / Jamei's Gaze / Extinguish / Aegis, it could not a) afford the same level of spam, b) prot nearly as effectively, c) you typically do not need to spam Heal Other and Jamei's Gaze if your team is semi-decent at avoiding damage, d) you need to split stats to use Healing Prayers, Protection Prayers and Energy Storage - which means the more unique prots like Shield of Absorption are out of your reach and e) you don't have a good self-heal to use (Heal Area and Healing Breeze are the only real alternatives, neither of which are good).

Ether Renewal brings together an altogether different package. Now you can heal without having much Healing Prayers (Infuse), Prot more than a real Monk can ever hope to do (and more Prot is always good, even if it's overprot, since you never run out of energy anyway) and heal yourself. The returns from Ether Renewal are certainly superior to Ether Prodigy.

What I wrote is with respect to Ether Prodigy, but the same applies to Soul Reaping.

Quote:

Spamming heals and prots is bad even if u have the energy, just heal the guy getting hit, and if u do that your energy will be fine as a monk and your team will not die

also the only places that dont have rend or some shit, are easy as hell and theres no point to look for the ele ER spammer, cause the monk will still do better and most of the attacks will go under the prots the ER spammer uses "before u say change the build" if you do that you lost the point of the build, why spam 5E heals and prots? a monk can do it better and have more flexibility.

Regarding the first point: so spam Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on the people getting hit. I don't see your point. Regarding the second point: I challenge you to Monk in PvE with neither Spirit Bond nor Prot Spirit. If, as you say, 'most of the attacks will go under the prots the ER spammer uses' then you obviously don't need either Spirit Bond nor Prot Spirit, right? Let's see you try that. And the third point: name me an area in which you think anti-enchants are prevalent enough that the Ether Renewal build fails, and I'll go there and try it out. I have not, despite using Ether Renewal extensively, run into such an area; the only real area I can think of is the Ring of Fire Island chain with Lingering Curse, when I won't run ER.

By the way I'm going to ask you if you run three Superior runes (not counting the Vigor rune) in PvE (i.e. Superior Heal, Superior Divine and Superior Prot).

Quote:

You don't need the energy management unless you're a pretty bad Monk.

I suppose you don't go Mo/E and bring GoLE in PvE?

kazjun · Aug 27, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

You don't use N/Mo's for healing cause their heals don't compare to a N/Rt's heals. You need DF for most monk heals to be good, else the numbers are just better for RT's. Combined with SR and SoLS (both always on and unstrippable) providing lots of energy while taking only one skill slot and leaving your elite free, it also allows a lot of variety in what you bring on your bar.

DarkSpirit · Aug 27, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Spamming is just bad.

No it is not and even up to now you still have not proven why it is bad to have up to 4 GDW active at all times, rather than just 1. I still prefer having infinite energy than having limited energy so I dont see your point as to why this is a bad build.

Tyla · Aug 27, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

So did I, no PvE skills. Relied a ton on enchantments though.

Enchantments are good, still. The reason enchant removal > ER is because ER mainly relies on the enchantment itself to fuel the massive energy gain.

Quote:

And before you reply with "PvE skills are there to abuse", "you don't get any credit by not using PvE skills", "two monk backline can do it better", "vanquishing is easy", etc, do note that we all don't have all the campaigns or are in an ultra capable l337 guild or have been playing for three years.

A: Not having all of the campaigns isn't a point in the first place.

B: Wait, so because I used heroes and henchmen it was because I'm in an "Ultra capable 1337 guild"?

As far as I'm concerned, just because we're well known on Guild Wars Guru doesn't make us good. The only thing that makes people good is capabilities and their choices. Being in X guild has nothing to do with that.

C: I've been playing for two years, and I was extremely bad and stupid until I first started dedicating myself to getting my Bambi using the build I hated playing: Spiritway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I suppose you don't go Mo/E and bring GoLE in PvE?

Nope. I prefer to fool around. PvE isn't serious enough.

Quote:

Before the ER buff I played around with Ether Prodigy, which also gives drastic energy returns, but in this case the weaknesses are more pronounced. While Ether Prodigy provides enough energy to use Heal Party / Heal Other / Jamei's Gaze / Extinguish / Aegis, it could not a) afford the same level of spam, b) prot nearly as effectively, c) you typically do not need to spam Heal Other and Jamei's Gaze if your team is semi-decent at avoiding damage, d) you need to split stats to use Healing Prayers, Protection Prayers and Energy Storage - which means the more unique prots like Shield of Absorption are out of your reach and e) you don't have a good self-heal to use (Heal Area and Healing Breeze are the only real alternatives, neither of which are good).

Ether Renewal brings together an altogether different package. Now you can heal without having much Healing Prayers (Infuse), Prot more than a real Monk can ever hope to do (and more Prot is always good, even if it's overprot, since you never run out of energy anyway) and heal yourself. The returns from Ether Renewal are certainly superior to Ether Prodigy.

What I wrote is with respect to Ether Prodigy, but the same applies to Soul Reaping.

The difference is with Soul Reaping you're not using your elite and can bring WoH. That, and you can still use your attributes to get a decent use out of a hybrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazjun

You don't use N/Mo's for healing cause their heals don't compare to a N/Rt's heals. You need DF for most monk heals to be good, else the numbers are just better for RT's. Combined with SR and SoLS (both always on and unstrippable) providing lots of energy while taking only one skill slot and leaving your elite free, it also allows a lot of variety in what you bring on your bar.

You need Divine Favour for most Monk heals to be good? What?

You don't go for /Mo for pure healing, you go for /Mo for healing and protting. Healing 11, Prot 10 and Soul Reaping 10+1+1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

No it is not and even up to now you still have not proven why it is bad to have up to 4 GDW active at all times, rather than just 1. I still prefer having infinite energy than having limited energy so I dont see your point as to why this is a bad build.

When the hell did I say having 4 GDW active at all times was bad? Where the hell did I say this was a bad build?

The only time spamming is "good" is with very, very few skills, and while Monking there is not a single one. As for GDW, I'd only put it on a Paragon or if I'm not running an Earth Shaker, Dervs or Warriors aswell.

Ensign · Aug 27, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

A WoH hybrid in hardmode works so well; the loss of that powerheal for infinite energy (in my experience) isn't worth it.

You don't have Infuse on your bar. Come back when you've played an Ether Renewal bar that doesn't suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The other thing is that Ether Renewal is almost always covered under heaps of enchantments.

Honestly, that doesn't even matter most of the time, because this is PvE, not PvP, and monsters don't instantly run into the backlines to Rend you when there are enchanted targets right in their face. You can cast Spirit Bond every 2.25 seconds into eternity, and probably have a couple Prot Spirits up as well; pre-protted melee will suck down a majority of the enchantment removal that you'll run into. It's only against mobs with *massive* amounts of deep removal (several Rends, Lingerings, Gazes) that you're at risk of being stripped. Unless you're pulling multiple mobs at once, you should never be getting rended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

All in all I think the best enchantment to maintain 8 copies of is Vital Blessing, if only because there aren't any alternatives.

I think the best enchantment to maintain is Purifying Veil, followed by Holy Veil. Both are best against degen, which is what you're weakest against. I don't feel that either is worth the slot on the bar for what it costs you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Next thought: it's possible to get Glyph of Swiftness to affect 2 spells if you switch headpieces every cast. Possible, but I'd say too much micromanaging for most people.

I don't understand. You need 3+1 Air to get a 2 spell Glyph. 12 ES / 12 Prot / 3 Air is a spec. You also only need 11+2 ES and 11 Prot (the last point in each gives you little). What could you possibly spend points on besides the Glyph that's worth more?

The second cast doesn't just make the skill so much better on the off cast (10s recharge = 2 casts per ER). It also lets you cast the Glyph, then cast another spell (Prot Spirit, Party Heal, Infuse) BEFORE casting the Ether Renewal while still getting the benefit. Reducing the time when you can't cast defensively from 3.5 seconds to 1.75 seconds is HUGE. It's the best 6 attributes points you can spend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Next: how many enchantments are really required to keep up the spam?

You can cast for a really long time on ER + AoR alone. ER + AoR + Prot Spirit goes infinite. ER + AoR + Prot Spirit + anything else makes you gain energy like crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm curious over the 8 Healing Prayers when Infuse is already almost always an overheal

Infusing back to back makes the second one better. Is the 12th point in Prot (1s on Prot Spirit, 84 -> 88 health on Spirit Bond) better? Neither jumps out at me as necessary. Grab whichever you fancy, I don't think it's too important.

I do think that Breath of the Great Dwarf is something you should definitely run on the bar; one of the big knocks on the build is how it doesn't heal, but if you ride the glyph you can cast Breath every 11 seconds in addition to everything else you're doing. It's basically 2/3 of an LoD with no attribute spec, no time cost, and boosts your energy like everything else.

DarkSpirit · Aug 27, 2008, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

When the hell did I say having 4 GDW active at all times was bad? Where the hell did I say this was a bad build?

The only time spamming is "good" is with very, very few skills, and while Monking there is not a single one. As for GDW, I'd only put it on a Paragon or if I'm not running an Earth Shaker, Dervs or Warriors aswell.

Then why did you say spamming is bad? ER builds are based around spamming because the more you spam the more health and energy you get.

Spamming may not be necessary for good monking but it certainly helps to have the health and energy whenever you need to cast a protection spell or Infuse so I dont see why it is bad.

Tyla · Aug 27, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then why did you say spamming is bad? ER builds are based around spamming because the more you spam the more health and energy you get.

You don't need to spam your skills on an ER Ele.

You don't always need the health or energy, and people don't always need the skills aswell.

DarkSpirit · Aug 27, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You don't need to spam your skills on an ER Ele.

You don't always need the health or energy, and people don't always need the skills aswell.

Sure but it is when things are going south is when your monks are put to the test, and their energies are taxed. For most monks, who may have not the best judgment and energy management discipline, having an infinite energy build would make them more effective.